A Case for the Reorganization of the Imperial Navy

[Mike Mar]

Here's an idea. That I will try to explain in English the best I can.

I am now alone on the Striker. Instead of closing it or sending it into combat empty. Let's just change his role and make it Officially the Office for Tactical Coordination base/ship of operations.

Like this it won't have to be decommissioned and will still have an important role.

People can than be directed to the Striker for Mission Creation or Mission Testing.

A similar idea could be found for the Nemesis. And once all available spots are filled on the Chimaera than a squadron or bridge crew can be transferred again on it.

I know this idea does not answers what La Forge's topic discuss. But I hope this can maybe be use to bring new ideas and find alternatives to closing either the Striker, the Nemesis or both.

[LC La Forge]

I should clarify. Yes, I want to see the various flag officers on the vessels stay. I simply want to remove the base units, the squads and bridge crews, and consolidate those. You flag staff can stay where you all want, you guys don't really matter here. ;)

[Calder]

The inherent problem here, that La Forge is getting at, is that we're trying to maintain a certain level of size without the numbers to warrant it. Where it becomes particularly embarrassing (for lack of a better word) is when you realize that you will have five or six people essentially commanding the same thing. It's not good to have only three or four people in a squadron or bridge crew, but then let's say you consolidate. Then what do you have?

You end up with one half-full ship (the Chimaera) commanded by a captain and first officer. Okay, that makes sense. But then above that you have a commander of the Navy (the aforementioned one ship) and then the Supreme Commander himself (commander of one ship and one brigade, because the Army is in the same condition).

This is the inherent problem and limitation. How to consolidate on one hand, yet not humiliate ourselves on the other? No offense to the Admiralty of course, because they have all earned their rank, but one wonders at the justification of having more officers ranked rear admiral and above then there are ships in the Navy. In fact, I daresay that there are other officers besides those currently holding the rank of admiral or general who would have been just as deserving - if not more so - of promotions to those positions but they served in a time where not only was the Fleet larger, but those ranks were simply unattainable. I remember what an amazing feat it was when Syrtaras became a vice admiral, for example.

Now, Commander La Forge says (somewhat facetiously, of course) that the Flag Officers don't matter here and are not of an organizational importance in restructuring the Navy. I couldn't disagree more for several key reasons. First, the Admiralty is the most visible and respected part of the GE and should be the ones leading any such "charge". Change can't come from the bottom - it must come from the top down. We have to look at the entire Fleet, for not only the obvious reasons.

For example, what are we to tell a new recruit when he wonders if he will ever become a ship captain or, heaven forbid, an admiral? "Sorry, not possible." We are losing track of what attracted many people to the GE in the first place. As has been pointed out before, not all of this is of our own doing. We suffer from a lack of interest in these games now and the unlikelihood that we will gain any new platforms in the foreseeable future. But that doesn't change the fact that many people joined the GE for the role-playing nature, and the possibility of advancement and recognition in a role-playing environment. Many people, most noticeably people like Fel, have put a lot of effort into the club and while many of us did it for self-serving purposes in the beginning, the idea was never lost that this was a fun organization that many people have enjoyed being part of. But at what point did it cease to be a roleplaying gaming organization and become more of a social club? In that sense, I think we need to get back to our roots and what attracted many of us to the GE in the first place. How can we expect to foster excitement and energy in new recruits when we lack it ourselves?

You might be wondering if I am proposing a solution, since in my younger days in the GE I had a reputation as an "idea man" and a somewhat dynamic presence. Ha! Those were the days!

My solution is one that I thought up a long time ago, and it was deemed not necessary at the time. In fact, I doubt now if it will solve any of our long term problems, but it might help with some short term ones.

My proposal *artificially* increases the size of the GE. Think to our flight sim games. What do you, as the player do? You command a squadron of AI pilots who more or less follow your orders, but you don't actually have any real control over them. That's what new recruits will do: as a newly commissioned ensign in a flying squadron, you will command a "unit" that exists on paper only. There will be no more "individual" pilots: the lowest level of existence is squadron commander. Now, this brand new ensign still doesn't have authority over real people, but that is the same as our current setup. The Army will function the same way: New graduates will command a company. You might be thinking "Wait, Ensigns in charge of squadrons? I thought lieutenants did that!" Well, they do. A squadron leader will rank anywhere from ensign to lieutenant commander. The position doesn't change, but the rank does. When the decision was originally made to introduce intermediate ranks to the Navy it was to reward those who deserved recognition, but could not be promoted at that time due to lack of senior openings. This takes it even further. (For ease, I will be referring to Navy ranks/units from here on out most of the time, but the appropriate Army rank/unit will function the same unless noted otherwise).

If ensigns are commanding squadrons, what do our current lieutenants do? Well, now they get ships. They're still leading the same number of people, but we're just calling it something different. What does this do for them? Well, for starters we stop automatically making line captains the leaders of ISDs. Every captain is just that - a captain, unless he is promoted to line captain in the course of his tenure as a ship captain. What about current captains? Well, all two of us would become admirals and lead a systems force or equivalent (alternatively, it also gives our current admirals something to actually command rather than purely administrative duties). The Army would function the same way. The Bridge Crews are somewhat of an anomaly, but would also be spread out. There would be only one bridge crew per ship, which would eliminate the redundancy there. It would also probably be best to go back to a slight differentiation, where squadrons are on one kind of ship, and Bridge Crews were on another - perhaps that would be the difference between ISDs and VSDs, since we're still only going to end up with two ISDs and the bulk of reassignments would go to new VSDs.

Well, you might ask "What is the point of that? It doesn't actually fix anything!" As I said, it doesn't solve our long term problems, but it addresses several short term issues. First, it reopens upward mobility for ALL levels of command. Second, it makes us APPEAR larger and more viable. Remember, perception is reality. What does a prospective recruit think when he sees one ship, versus a fleet? Third, it allows greater ease for gaming on a larger scale. As everyone knows, one of my great loves is war-gaming and this would lend itself very well to large projects like the Supremacy or Purge Orus games. After all, if you're going to have a fleet battle, it helps to have a fleet.

The drawbacks? It has been mentioned to me that it would destroy the longheld unit rivalries and histories. While this might be true to a point, I fail to see how it's any worse than simply decommissioning a unit. Is a paper Gamma Squadron "led" by one officer really worse than no Gamma Squadron at all? Second, if this was enacted, it would be extremely difficult to "un-do" down the road - however, the only reason we would want to undo it is if our numbers miraculously sky-rocketed, and I don't think that will happen any time soon.

Either way, I think this bears some discussion and considering. Desperate times call for desperate measures, after all.

[Vortagh]

I have to remark a few things.

First of all, the size of HC or Flag officers in the GE, is justified. Each one of them, has quite a workload and with those people not being paid to do GE work full time, they do quite a job. Academy commandant, TC, Fel & Fel doing all sorts of maintenance & web work....

I have always been a stern proponent to downsizing the GE structure, as you know. I did it when Daemers was still around - we all know how many good ideas he actually put into motion - I did it when the GE:ER was being formed and I still do it. Unless I am in lazy-mode. No, I am NOT always in lazy-mode. :P

I am still not sure if the idea of those imaginary positions would work out, but it's always worth a try. Calder is right with one thing :With Ensigns commanding the squads, we COULD finally have "full" ships again and maybe even re-open closed ones and those ensigns would have a shot at ranks up to LC.
On the downside, we have no idea how this would affect morale. Why I disagree with Fewrfreyut's "demoralizing" idea in regards to all this (after all, what is more demoralizing? Being split/merged, or the GE loosing activity?), one can't say how other people would take it. Then again, people have a chance to voice their concerns here.


P.S.: I still think we should "get rid" (in name only) of the Chimera and the Nemesis. We are NOT Grand Admiral Thrawn's armada. :P

[Calder]

I'm not knocking the duties of the High Command at all. The only "justification" that I think could be added to their positions is exactly what I pointed out before: rather than existing for their (very necessary) administrative purposes, there would be an actual fleet to command.

And again, alternatively, if Drazhar and I were made commodores and given systems forces under this proposal, it would bring back the real distinction (that all militaries have) between the generals and admirals who run things, versus the generals and admirals that lead troops in the field.

[Vortagh]

Well, I can even see the Flag officers having some value. Granted, they wouldn't have much more "job" to do than the captains, but at the same time, we're not really looking for people to cram more work into their schedule afterall. That way, it wouldn't interfere with real work duties and it wouldn't be a problem if someone would have to go on leave.

[LCL Fewrfreyut]

in regards to Vort' comment about when I said demoralizing, that was my unsuccessful attempt at saying the exact same thing Calder said about recruits joining to a ship or a fleet.

I also really like Calder's idea. Since it seems most of the ships listed in the official rosters are "artificial" anyways, and with the addition of our gaming platforms where we actually command AIs, his idea seems to make alot of sense.

And which gives a more powerful image of the Empire? a single star destroyer? Or a fleet of star Destroyers? That was what I meant when I said the word demoralizing.

[Markus Redd]

I like Calder's idea too.

[LGN_Antillies]

I am somewhat uncomfortable with this whole idea. I am afraid that all this will accomplish is make LT (or whatever introductory rank we give incoming members if this goes through) into the new ensign. And because of this those upper ranks will lose the prestige and honor they once held because of all the hard work that was necessary in order to achieve them.

Granted, Calder's idea has some merits, but I don't think it will really fix anything significant except satisfy a handful of individuals' role playing desires. Also, having new members command "bots" does nothing to give them administrative or command experience they would receive if they held a unit leader position. Yes, we would be able to open up new ships but it does nothing to increase our member count.

Again, all this really does is shift the command levels up one. I am not sure if it is the appropriate action to fix the problem we are experiencing.

[LCL Fewrfreyut]

Antillies: It opens up new command positions, may even reopen the frigates, and allows more upward movement. Should the member count increase again, which it very well might if we reopen ships, then it gives ensigns an opportunity to move up, because, well, let's face it. We have so few command positions open, that it would be a fairly long wait until an ensign is given the oppoertunity to command real people anyways. All this does is not up everyone. The Ensigns or Lieutenants which ever they would be, would still have to submit reports to the captain. They would be the much the same in duties. The only change is this would make the Empire appear larger than it actually is. Anyone who joins the navy dreams of commanding a Star destroyer some day. Maybe doing this makes the recruit's dreams closer to being opbtained, which would then make them interested to stay.

I joined the GE:ER with the hopes of one day commanding an ISD. Over the time I've been in the Empire, I have felt more desire to stick with it not just for an ISD, but because of the people I've met here. Everyone who has ever joined the Empire has dreamed of a command position. To deny this would be to lie. It's this prospect of command that hooks people to join the Empire. Then they develop more of a desire to stay from the experiences they'veh ad and the people they've met.

It's a classic marketing strategy: Hook, Line, and sinker. Calder's idea gives more bait and temptation, at least in my eyes, to join the Empire. And that's what we need.

[Vortagh]

Antillies: Here's my 0.02$ on those points of yours:

- First of all, Flag Officers have always been pretty much "job less". As I have mentioned, they basically are a higher ranking captain. In olden days, that might have been different, when they'd see reports from maybe ten captains, but the GE never saw that. So, at least that part wouldn't really change anything. Flag positions would stay what they are, organisation of several ships. However, with this, they'd actually have some meaning, organising several ships AND they'd actually be THERE for people to reach them - which brings me to the next point:

- New members would still start as an ensign and they'd still report to a higher chain of command. They'd still have the same job. It's just that instead of having one lonely 6-man squad on an ISD, it would mean that the ISD would be fully staffed, which not only looks good on paper, but also does something for morale. In the end, it wouldn't make the GE smaller, but bigger and also hopefully more active, which is the main point here (more on that at the very end).

It would also make rewarding active people more easy, because simple "squadmembers" (now leaders) could then not only recieve medals, which often depend on people hosting compeitions, but also recieve ranks up to LC if they are really active and more "command" positions are effectively available. Current XOs would basically be the new squad leaders, which also would let them work better IMHO. Also, there's no chance in hell that we'd just give out high ranks. You'll get a high rank if you deserve it. Not because we got rid of squadrons. Don't understand where you get that idea.

And we wouldn't even need bots. Instead of having the long "1-1, 1-2, 1-3, 2-1 [...]" lists, we'd have a single entry:

Alpha Squadron - EN Alohahe

Also, I don't really understand your "role playing desires" remark. Not only would it be nicer for RPG, it would also be easier to have tactical wargames with the Navy. More fleet action in general! Also - what command or administrative experience do squad members get nowadays? How to report in? They'd still do that. How to talk to others? Still do that. How to talk to subordinates? They don't get that now, until they are in SL positions. Doesn't really make a difference with this change. They'd still get to do it in a different position. Please don't forget that this isn't the real military. You don't need much experience in ANY of our non-HC positions. There's no strategy or tactics in the GE, no large scale units that you really need to administrate. No forms, nothing.


Alltogether, this is, in my opinion, nothing else but what we have now, with the sole exception that we'd basically move upward one notch. Hell, if there'd be no-one in the Navy playing simulators, I'd suggest striking squadrons completely for all but Scimitar and then having a realistic Navy - where Ensigns command very small vessels and (only Line) Captain command ISDs.
In the end, this doesn't really change anything, once you get over the fact that we'd get rid of large squadrons. Let's face it, it's better - simple as that and it makes sense. This isn't about member count. Let's be drastic and direct: There's nothing we can do about member count nowadays, sadly. We've had countless recruiting drives - Members come and go and the Navy, as said in the other thread about mods, isn't going to get a huge boost in numbers.
Simulator Squadrons are nearly dead. There's nothing we can do about it. Nothing. We can beg and whine and whatnot, but it won't change anything. Unless a new game comes along - very unlikely - it's passé.

P.S.: You are army scum and a traitor, what do you care about the Navy? :P

[Vortagh]

Fewr said it in lesser words. :P

[Vortagh]

P.S.: I also like Mar's idea. We could easily turn the Striker into an "official" ship. This would really just be an RPG-measure, but it could still work out nice. Afterall, the shipyard isn't anything else.

[LGN_Antillies]

Fine, fine. And I care for the navy as much as I do the army, especially in this particular case. If the navy implements it, the army must as well, else we lose the rank equivilancy.

[LCL Fewrfreyut]

Vort: I still think you explained it more clearly in english, despite the fact that German is your first language =P